Joining Together to Protect Adult Learning

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um welcome everybody you know just um fantastic to see over a hundred people on the call this evening at relatively

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short notice as well so I think that instantly says something about the importance of of this this evening sort

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of collection and and I'm delighted that we're joined by you know some you know really really good panelists we've got

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Baroness Garden of Frognolu Garden who is the um Lib Dem um deputy speaker in

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the in the lords and needs to leave us at some point just before the end of this meeting to to carry out those duties to be on the the wool sack we've

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got Lord Blunkett David Blunkett strong advocate of the WA and um adult learning

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generally with us and and David will be speaking later delighted that we've got Steven Evans from the learning and work

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institute to talk talk us through some of that that bigger piece and and um how this sits within you know both this the

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um statement we've just received the spring statement and you know perhaps even for running the comprehensive

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spending review a little bit and and Graeme Averton as well in many many roles and again a good friend of the WA

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and an advocate for for adult learning so you know thank you to them for making the time i can see other familiar faces

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on the call as well both WEA members and WEA supporters i can see Gordon Mars on

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the call and others you know thank you um I'm not going to waffle on because we want to hear from from the speakers but

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you what we're faced with and what you will have seen in the the sort of leadup to to this um gathering this webinar is

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that you know the adult skills fund is under threat again you know we we knew

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and were disappointed that the mayoral combined authorities had been asked to cut two between two and 3% from their

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allocations to expect that as a cut in their allocations and we were working hard to try and mitigate that cuts those

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cuts but then you know hearing or well not hearing really on not being consulted but then you know being you

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know told that there would be a 6% cut to the adult skills fund with with no consultation really was really

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surprising and disappointing and I know it's it's tough fiscal times and I know there are tough choices to be made but

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it does feel again like the adult skills fund is being um placed under pressure

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in a way that other funding streams aren't and it'd be interesting to sort of um talk about that and try and get

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some views on that from our from our panelists um you'll hear from us right at the end of this and we we do want

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this to be a discussion so please get your your questions in and we'll try and get them to the right panel members um

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but we you know we feel like there is a bit of a call to action and Katie might talk about that towards the end of of

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this meeting about what our next steps are and and what we're trying to do to to really make sure that we we have our

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voices heard in terms of the importance of of the adult skills fund so that's

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that's the setup i'll maybe come back at the end and and sort of give you some reflections on what we've heard from our panelists but I want to get straight in

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to to our panelists and and welcome um Baroness Garden of Frognull sue you know

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I'm delighted that you you've made the time for us particularly like I say given I think the technical term is on

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the wool sack at 6 p.m so you know thank you because that that

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you know that is is really generous of you to to make the time and and I'll give you the floor just for your

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reflections i know you're a strong advocate on on adult learning just where where are you on this what what is some

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of your thinking around where we find ourselves today well thank you very much Simon yes indeed um and thank you to

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Simon Chris and WA for organizing this meeting on adult learning as you said it's I think we will all agree that

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adult learning is a good thing both for those who already know a lot and for

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those who have missed out on learning in their youth and I'm delighted and somewhat nervous to see David Blunkett

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and Graeme Athetherton on this call they're both good friends who have contributed so much to adult learning

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and who know far more than me about this important topic there is today a very

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real concern about the young people who are not in education employment or training known as NES whose hope of

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being useful members of society rests on coming to learning later in life my

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years working for City and Gills taught me much about the adults who are the main candidates for City and Gills

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qualifications i met people who were lifelong learners addicted to acquiring new skills and knowledge for employment

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and enjoyment but many who were new to learning sometimes struggling after

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schooling which had left them illequipped for life and for work and we should perhaps start with schools we had

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a house of laws committee last year on 16 to19 education under the chairmanship

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of Joe Johnson who's a much more serious operator than his big brother which showed comprehensively that the

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knowledged many practical young people very badly many wrote themselves off as

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thick when Shakespeare and algebra defeated them but if left to fix a car

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cook a meal or build something they were in their element and we advise that

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schools should think of the skills and knowledge young people needed for life financial literacy rather than algebra

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perhaps oracy being able to speak rather than literature to which they could not relate although I have to say

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Shakespeare can be an eye openener for some otherwise non-academic children and our committee argued that skills are

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vitally important for life but also in employment because even ivory towers

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need builders plumbers caterers hairdressers IT specialists even more so

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with AI so prominent yet those who show show real interest and talent in these

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fields are made to feel inadequate if at the same time they're failing GCES

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i tried to convince Michael Gove when we had in the heady days of the Curishian government that schools should be

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encouraged to celebrate their apprentice levers with the same enthusiasm as their university levers what a great idea Sue

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he said and did absolutely nothing at all about it because apprentices will nearly always tell you that their

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schools did not tell them about alternatives to university because schools after all are measured on their

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university entrances but they discovered themselves ways of learning and earning

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money instead of acquiring debt by chatting to friends and exploring online

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opportunities and if they could discover the joy of learning early their prospects would be all the better i was

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always very much in favor of national vocational qualifications at level one when they came in written off by many in

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education as of no useful purpose but their real purpose was in giving public

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accreditation albeit for pretty basic skills to people who had never been given a national certificate i remember

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one of my hard-bitten colleagues at City and Gills coming back quite moved after from an award ceremony for carers being

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awarded level one certificates they and their families were so proud they'd

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never been told they could achieve anything before but now they had been recognized nationally as achievers and

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often that initial recognition made people realize that learning could be for them give them confidence and led to

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continuing their learning discovery into more advanced areas and indeed one of the points in the briefing note uh says

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that it um that 51% of WA learners reported an increase in self-confidence

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and confidence is right at the heart of learners it was Jean Pia who argued that

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cognitive development is not only about acquiring knowledge but also about constructing it meaning that adult

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learners actively shape their understanding of the world through their own experiences they will come to

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learning generally with past experience sometimes very negative memories of schooling but life has shown them that

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there can be more to their lives and they will tend to have better motivation

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and readiness to learn than younger people the last government proposed a lifelong learning entitlement loans that

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adults could access to pay for education and training we Liberal Democrats argued

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that few adults would be encouraged to take on loans and debts when they already had commitments and we proposed

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grants at different points in life we reckoned that the increase in skills and employment would soon repay the outlay

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sadly the Conservative government was not convinced and I fear with all the current financial wos Labor will not see

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this as a priority amongst all the other calls on funds in very short supply but

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we still believe it would be a good long-term investment the Labour Party's notion of

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empowering local leaders to have a greater control of skills development in their areas is one which colleges

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actively embrace uh not least through engagement with local skills improvement

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plans uh and we see from again from the briefing notes the importance of reversing the short-sighted cuts to

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national and devolved adult skills funds which really are vital if the country is going to restore

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itself um and devolving skills funding should establish much better

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articulation between ski local skills needs and provision because different

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parts of the country will have very different skills needs and indeed different employment opportunities we

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are very well aware that rural and coastal areas of the country have far fewer employment opportunities

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apprenticeships will be fewer unemployment higher and prospects pretty dismal

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we are still unclear about the prospect of Skills England the IFATE bill we were

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told was the Skills England bill but mysteriously it contained no mention whatsoever of Skills England we have to

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hope that this will give greater coordination across the country and avoid a form of postcode lottery in the

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cost and availability of skills development as ever our hardworking further education colleges will have a

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key role to play in working to develop alternative pathways both into

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employment and into higher education for adults it will be really important to

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ensure that there are no major disparities between local offices offers

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and we shall continue to campaign for better pay for FE teachers and tutors it

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is quite wrong that their pay and conditions are worse than school teachers when they have a much wider

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range of learners to cater for though we must restore the adult education budget

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overall to 2010 levels by the end of parliament and we shall be watching this

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with care we hope to see an end to the countless resets for GCSE English and

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maths which the last government insisted on for apprentices without appreciating

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this entrenched failure in people who may have had major talents in other areas our education system should

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identify and encourage skills if our adult learners are to prosper so I look forward very much to listening to others

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on this call as Simon has said I'm on the wool sack at 6 so regret I will have to leave before the end to ensure I've

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done my homework because there's quite a bit of adult learning to being a deputy speaker i think it was Adam Smith who

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said every man is a student all his life and longer too quite what he meant by that is a bit mysterious and if he

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thought about it very clearly he would have added women but of course in his day women were not considered learners

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at least we have improved in some ways so once again my thanks WA for this meeting and best wishes to all adult

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learners thank you very much thank you Sue that's a an excellent start to the

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evening thank you very much and that that passion and commitment for it comes across you know really really strongly

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so thank you for that i know you have to leave us so um just I might um use my

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prerogative as chair just just that one question you you quite rightly said you know we now talk about the adult skills

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fund rather than the adult education budget and that notion of learning for life learning for enjoyment I think was

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the words that you used early in your in your piece as well just just how much do

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you think that is even if we we were you know even if we retain the adult skills

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fund level how much do you think that that community learning now called tailored learning learning for enjoyment

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and knowledge creation how much do you feel that's a you know threat at the moment i think it is because I still

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remember teaching in a college in the heady days when you could just sign up and it was all free um I think I taught

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French to a group of of adults who were um who were very enthusiastic uh they

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weren't by any means all going to pass any exams but they weren't worried about that and actually there was a feeling in

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colleges then that learning was fun and it was something that everybody had access to and I think these days when uh

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it's all much more costly and far fewer people can just wander into a college and pick up a course I think are sad

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days i can understand the economics of it but but I think it's sad no thanks Sue no that's that's fantastic

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and um yeah feel free to to stay with us as long as you can or leave when you need to i will indeed i will indeed a

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massive a massive thank you for making Thank you very much um I see that um

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Lord Blunkett David Blunkett's joined us as well i know David was was time pressured as well so um Stephen I hope

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you won't mind but I'm just going to ask ask Lord Blunky um David would you do

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would you feel better speaking next because I know you were under time it would help it would help me a lot i'll

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try and stay on as long as I can Simon um yeah I'll try I'll try not to repeat

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what Sue actually said um with which I agree um let me start by saying I I

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think there's a real problem um not least for the department of education because in addition to the well reversed

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black hole that everybody knows about there was a large number of projects and

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service level agreements which were only funded to the 31st of March i.e next

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Monday by the previous government in other words there was no spending review before the general election and there

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was therefore no continuence built into the forward budget by the Treasury of

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funding for those projects and I don't think it's been well explained by my government in terms of exactly what's

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happening with what might be described as the cliff edge of spending on a number of projects i tried to get out of

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the Department of Education both by questions and then a Freedom of Information request what projects what

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spending lines they were actually cancelling and believe it or not they

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don't appear to have a comprehensive list which is remarkable given that they

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have to produce annual accounts so I think there's a mess going on uh which

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also exposes why short-term cuts and crude chopping off at the edges is

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taking place but as you'll have probably gathered from things I've said and written recently if you've been tuning

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in at all um I'm very offside with the orthodox uh austerity agenda which we're

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moving into so I'm going to try and confine myself to what the hell we can do well well clearly raising the profile

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and campaigning with which what you're doing this evening uh is a part Simon

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but I also think we're going to have to think creatively as well as bringing pressure to bear so here's some thoughts

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firstly with devolved budgets and the 3% cut I think we need to persuade those

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who are making decisions that they should use some of their unring fenced money to put some of this back uh

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they'll have to do because some of the projects that they're currently funding uh will otherwise be chopped and that

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will be extraordinarily bad news for them because of course the nearest you

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are to the people who are getting the cut the more likely you are to be blamed so I think we've got a job of work to do

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both with elected mayors and where it's appropriate uh local authorities top tier authorities to actually get them to

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understand that there are real big P political issues here something I'm

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trying to persuade my own government about and secondly with the wider adult

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education profile whether we can't get across the the issues around mental

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health uh for young and older people the

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welfare to work agenda which I would be in favor of if they weren't actually cutting the

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welfare budget in order to meet a an OBR invented uh scorecard uh which is

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frankly ridiculous um but that welfare to work agenda cannot be achieved

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without the introduction of people back into the the learning world and that

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will be helpful both to their mental health to their confidence as Sue has already spelled out very clearly um to

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their self-esteem and their readiness to be able to take on the challenge of moving into part-time or full-time work

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so I think we should try and bring pressure to bear in terms of uh mental

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health and work and pensions so ICBS and where it's appropriate at place level

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with the health service uh the department itself and work and pensions

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there's no point in having a billion pounds swilling about if there's no actual programs to fund and whilst

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training work coaches and in and and recruiting more people at that level

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with job centers is a good thing actually it's going to take a lot of time and there are adult programs

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already in train and easily put together that could be part of that curve of

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getting people from where they are now back into an individual place where they

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can take those opportunities so I'm being a bit utilitarian here i'm I'm not

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diverting from the importance of adult learning for its own sake or or for the

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kind of agendas that Sue mentioned in terms of language but for many people it

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will be fairly basic adult courses that enhance their learning and their ability

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to cope in their own terms but also will be part of this wider agenda and if we

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could persuade people to join up then health and well-being bo boards at local

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level could drive this agenda and I think we need to connect the other bit I want to say is that the trade union

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movement have been historically um and the WA have worked with them an absolute

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driving force for learning out of the workplace as well as within and I was

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pleased to fund the original UN union learn fund which of course was abolished

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and trying to get the government to put it back in where learning representatives were actually driving

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that in the workplace place but also learning uh mentors and and learning

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champions outside the workplace were also a part of promoting adult learning

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and the final thing I want to say on this is there's a big social cohesion

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agenda in terms of those who want to learn English as an additional language and must do so if they're going to

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integrate and they're going to be part of the workforce so we've got an equality agenda which often is about uh

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gender uh differences and particularly in relation to women and so I think

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we've got a a wider drive here not just a campaign to stop cuts or to stop

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further cuts because of course the spending review will be about so-called

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baseline appraisal and reassessment of priorities in the summer within an

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envelope that's already been determined by the so-called fiscal rules and the

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scorecard of the OBR and the fear of the international markets all those three

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come together into a a very unfortunate um chemistry but actually also saying

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when we do see the picture what are other departments going to do in using adult learning as a means to their ends

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as well as a good thing in its own right so that's what I wanted to say Simon

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oh that's fantastic David thank you and um and again because I I know you're short of time so feel free you know to

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to stay as long as you as you can with us again um just using using the

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position that that last piece I think is is really important in and your experience as a a former education

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secretary former works and pension secretary home secretary this notion of

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how we might join this up because at at the moment it feels like in the Department for Education that the adult

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skills fund is being it's almost like the little piggy bank that they can smash with a big hammer to release a few

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coppers to to fund breakfast clubs in schools or to fund construction apprenticeships and and and then at the

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same time we're really excited and and we're pleased to see things like um the

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DWP's commitment to get Britain working and and the notion of skills development in that desit's proposal about a digital

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inclusion plan even at cult you know the department of culture media and sport talking about you know looking again at

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um you know cultural education and and bringing that within reach of everybody it feels like there's a big skills

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agenda out there skills England Sue's referenced as well but it feels so

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disjointed to us as a provider and if we we will try and engage with all of those in initiatives and all of those funding

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opportunities but it just takes time and money you know out of the organization

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to try and engage is there something the government could do better to just join some of this up because there does seem

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to be a number of initiatives that would make sense but they seem a bit a bit scattergun if if I may say that

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well we we should be thinking about what's already there and and how to

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relate to it you probably need the government to put in place and it wouldn't be very expensive a coordinator

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in each in each sub region of of England because we're talking about England here

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and and that would be in order to look at where programs already exist and

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where adult learning could be part of the picture you mentioned breakfast

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clubs is there any reason why whilst children are getting breakfast and being

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supported uh and cared for that adults shouldn't be taking part in a class at

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the same time um many parents and some grandparents would like to do that um

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and it might again be a really important way of getting children back into school because if the adults who are currently

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out of work and not getting up in the morning aren't getting the children to school and we know there's 20%

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uh who are not attending school for at least 10% of the time and it's dramatically worse for over 50% um then

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that's a way of connect connectivity so I think we need someone who pulls the

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bits together and says if GP practices are going to be given as they were experimentally some years ago the

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ability to provide a fit note that says I'm prescribing that you go to an adult

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education class uh of your choice and here's the menu um then that would be

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part of it but as you say it takes time and resource to put that together and it

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may well be that one person at devolved level could be assigned the post not

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just to spend their time telling people that the money's been cut but actually

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working out how to bring that money in in a coordinated fashion i'm trying to think laterally because otherwise we're

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going to be going down a rabbit hole where we're all going to get extremely depressed and finally I don't know what

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the thinking of the department is when I came in in 97 nobody seemed to know what I was

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talking about when I was talking about adult and community learning my my first elected post uh when I became a city

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councelor because I was very young at the time was to to chair the youth and

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adult education subcommittee of what was then the education committee of the city

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um and I learned pretty quickly how important it was and I go so far back i remember the the Russell committee uh

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inquiry and the review we've never had anything like that for a very long time

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and seeing that my government's so keen on reviews maybe we should try and persuade them to do one

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excellent thank you David and um I you know just thank you for that again and just on your on your point about the MEL

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combined authorities we're starting to see we've not had we work in every Mel combined authority across England um

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we're starting to see our allocations come through for next year and they're all taking slightly different approaches

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it's early days we've probably seen four or five but we haven't seen yet the full

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passing on of the two and a half to 3% cuts they're all doing it slightly different one authority's held us steady

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for the next three years so no cut at all um another authority has said that

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um they've tried everything they can from their unring fence money as you were talking about David and they're

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passing on a 0.7% cut so that's you know that is fair play to them and then we've another

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authority that's saying they're going to stagger it over two years so 1.65 this year 1.65 that year so I think the meal

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authorities are doing what they can to to sort of protect the the provision

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because I think they understand how important it is to their um citizens residents and and their local economies

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um I guess what's a little bit and I try not to divide the the sector because I

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think we're better when we're we're all together in this but actually there's no

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protection for grantf funded public bodies in this you know that they're

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still commissioning the same level of work from profitm private providers and I think that is a legitimate question

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for us to put forward about if in a tight fiscal envelope particularly given

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what we know is that the quality of um local authority and public sector

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providers is really really high almost every single one is is good good and or outstanding on the Offstead card so big

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questions i think let me be very crude about this try and engage the the the trade unions because

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they've got a they've they have got and it's in the Lords this afternoon on its

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second reading as Sue will be overseeing in a minute they put it on a Thursday

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god knows why it's because so many people in the Lords live in London um

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but the employment rights bill is before before us and has been since lunchtime

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um and I think we should engage the trade unions the employment right is

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very important but the right to learn is very important and I think the trade union should mobilize after all um even

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Karma's Labor Party depends on trade union funding

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yeah agree and and yeah we're in close contact with um TU with GFTU and and

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their their various members as well so you know something that we definitely will be pushing with them in fact we're

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thinking next year um for our conference so 2026 it's a 100 the 100redy year

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anniversary of the general strike and we're thinking how can we work with trade unions to sort of um commemorate

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that and and sort of think about what some of the outcomes of that were so thank you for that david like I say

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welcome to join you know welcome to stay with us as long as you're able thank you stephen I'm going to come to you you

29:32

know as chief exec of the learning and work institute again you I'm really really grateful to you for giving up an

29:37

hour of your time because it is a massively busy period you know and and the work that you do for the sector and

29:44

across government in terms of analyzing policy and and putting some of those recommendations out there we would be we

29:52

would be lost as a sector without you know that work that that you and your team do on you i'm quite a small team as

29:59

well so you know we we're we're hugely grateful to to you and your colleagues

30:04

do you want to put you know put in context we had a we literally had a couple of minutes just before everybody

30:10

else joined us if are there any crumbs of comfort in this or are we are you just going to you in the the style that

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you do are you just going to paint the the the the best of a worst picture for us or you know where are you feeling on

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this what what do you you know and and feel is the direction of travel well

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yeah thank you Simon and to the WA for putting this on and for inviting me

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along as well i mean the the Learning and Work Institute was set up just over 100 years ago i think we're probably two

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or three years younger than the the WA but it it was all in that sort of time of um social change and looking at the

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expansion of adult education for economic reasons but also for social and

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societal uh reasons um as well and um yeah I'm going to try not to be um too

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too depressing for like a Thursday evening that everyone's um given up here so we'll try and in dad's army style

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we'll try and move as quickly as possible from we're all doomed to don't panic um so with the all doomed bit

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first um you're all forewarned this is coming so um I mean adult education and

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skills funding is a billion pounds lower in real terms in England than it was in 2010 our analysis shows so about 20% um

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down over that period of time i think it's also got skewed more I mean you talked about you know jobs versus

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education more broadly i think it's got more skewed to those who already have

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some qualifications at the risk of leaving um others behind so I'll give you an example um skills boot camps

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which were one of the previous government's sort of big things um more than half of participants in that

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already have a degree level qualification meanwhile English and maths learning for adults in England is

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down by 63% over the last decade so we got less money and it's not going as

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much to those who need it the most um too often um so actually I was going to

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mention Louise has popped up in the chat so I was going to mention Louise so well done on the the skills um boot camp but

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also I wanted to say so Louise has started a entry level three maths course with the WA so I wanted to say good luck

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to uh to Louise with uh with that course and all the fellow learners that we've got on the on the call um this evening

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um the other point I make is employers are investing less in learning skills and training so they're investing 26%

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less in skills that they were in training than they were back in 2005 and you're three times more likely to get

32:45

training at work if you're a graduate than if you're a non-graduate so I think this is a kind of wider societal point

32:51

here is it is government but it's not just um government now the last

32:56

depressing fact I promise um is the spring statement um yesterday um implies

33:03

further real terms cuts to nonprotected department so things that aren't health or defense or that sort of thing um and

33:11

if that was applied equally to adult education that would be another 200 million cut from the budget by the end

33:18

of this decade now we don't know if it will be cut in that sort of way um so

33:23

that's obviously not a not a guarantee but that gives you a sense of the further reduction that we could face if

33:29

we're if we're not careful so that's the sort of we're all doomed bit onto onto

33:34

the don't panic bit so I agree with a lot of what um Lord Blunket was um

33:40

saying for me my slightly cheesy phrase is that there's no such thing as a a silver bullet in public policy but that

33:48

adult education should be a golden thread running through every other policy area you can think of someone's

33:53

got to build these one and a half million homes someone's got to fit the clean energy uh we want to improve

33:58

health and well-being and cut the NHS waiting list we want to get another two million people into work to hit the

34:04

government's employment target you know the the the kind of list goes on adult education learning and skills are vital

34:10

to all of these um things and so in terms of what we do about it

34:17

um I was very sorry to see the the loss of union loan under the previous government so I think um um particularly

34:24

with the increases in in employment rights we've got um coming forward um

34:30

anything we can do to engage with unions and how they're going to engage with the employers that they're working with to

34:36

offer more opportunities at work give you a minor example at the learning and work institute every employee gets £200

34:43

a year towards the cost of nonwork learning that they want to do um so you know training on top of that as well but

34:50

some financial contribution towards nonwork learning we had all kinds of things from photography to sort of um

34:58

beauty and health hair and all kinds of uh uh Japanese and all kinds of stuff um

35:05

so that's one thing can we get employers to do some more stuff including working with trades unions um second thing is

35:12

how do we make the case to local services the local health service doing more of these referrals and local GPS

35:19

not just you know from West Streeting um downwards and that kind of requires some

35:24

of that local engagement that Lord Blunkett was talking about as well requires us thinking about all the

35:30

evidence we've got between us we've got some the WA's got some lots of other people have got some how do we add it

35:35

all up together but then also does require that national case so the last thing I'll say um is that we've so we've

35:44

been running the festival of learning so it was adult learners week to begin with some of you might remember for sort of

35:50

30 odd um years i'm really wondering what that set of emojis on there refers to i've lost track of the chat now um

35:57

I'll catch up with that in a minute um so we're looking to revamp that a bit over the next year and we'll be coming

36:04

to talk to all of you about this if you're if you're interested we still want to celebrate the best in adult

36:09

education which um is what the festival of learning um does but we also want to make it a bit more active about how we

36:16

make and win the case with uh decision makers and we've got some thoughts on that but actually you'll all have

36:22

thoughts as well so we'd love to work together on that so yeah hopefully not too depressing Simon but hopefully

36:29

helpful to to set a flavor um of kind of where we are but also some of the things

36:34

we can do about it yeah no thank you Stephen yeah the emojis worried me as well i I saw those pop up it be

36:41

interesting to catch up um on a on a serious note I I think that last piece

36:46

about influencing policy makers and how we use the evidence you and I have had you know many many chats about this the

36:54

the economic argument around skills development i think we can we can keep playing into that as you've just said

37:00

that golden thread that you if you want to build more houses if you want to um you know put more money into defense

37:07

to you know into capital projects for defense you still need somebody to build the boats or build the submarines like I

37:12

think we can win that how you know for many of certainly the faces I recognize

37:18

on this call that are our members and learners how do we win the argument about lifelong learning how do we win

37:24

the argument that actually this is as as important for people who um are retired

37:31

you know and not looking for work legitimately not looking for work that actually has positive impacts in terms

37:38

of do we do we still need to should we still be needing to make that case that says this is good for mental health and

37:44

well-being it combats isolation and loneliness it builds community cohesion

37:49

be that language skills or cooking on a budget or just coming together in a class with people that you might not

37:56

have met or known from your community if you didn't do that that that's harder I

38:01

think in the current context is there any crumbs of of you know with your sort

38:08

of knowledge of the evidence base is there stuff out there that we could be working on together to say there's a we

38:14

can win the argument not just on a moral argument but actually there's a there's

38:19

a sound economic reason for doing this as well yeah so I think it's a hearts and minds thing so part part of the

38:26

hearts is about the stories we tell through the WA awards but also our festival learning awards and all the

38:32

other things that go on so how do we how do we tell those stories and how do we link them together to that bigger

38:38

picture um but then I think there's more we need to do on the evidence side of things so so um so I used to work in the

38:46

Treasury and before you all boo at me this was when we were putting more money into adult education under the previous

38:52

uh Labor government uh not not least um so I'll get that caveat in now it's good

38:57

job you're all muted so you can't boo me um but the the thing we had a queue of people from all kinds of sectors and

39:04

services and and all the rest of it saying our thing's very important you should fund it it's got all these wider

39:09

benefits and it's the problem is everyone was doing it and um there was a

39:15

standard of evidence point but there was also a sort of relative point so for example we know that adult education is

39:22

good for mental health the example that you gave but is it as good as other

39:27

things or is it I think it's going to be better particularly when you think about the 79,000 other benefits that adult

39:33

education has but we don't talk about that because we haven't got the evidence base and tried to make the case to the

39:39

Department of Education they need to to build that but they haven't to be honest with you been tremendously interested

39:46

but we would love to work with the WA and and lots of others on how we can build that evidence base that's not

39:52

going to help us in the next 3 months before the next spending review but I tell you what it'll help us in 2029 when

39:57

the where the next one comes up and it'll help us in the intervening period of time so I think it's we have got some

40:03

evidence um but but in terms of convincing the Treasury and also the

40:08

Department of Education to go into bat for this over other things I think we we've got a little bit further to go

40:14

combined with the the sort of the stories that we can tell the examples

40:20

that we've got and the difference that we see it makes in practice yeah no thanks Stephen i think I think that's

40:26

right and I can see the comments coming through in the chat as well we we'll try you know to leave time you know you know

40:32

we've got Graeme joining us next we we'll try and answer some of those because there's lots of questions about

40:38

um who's paying what the most per you know there's some you know really good sort of questions for us as a WA and

40:45

some wider questions if we don't get to answer them all this evening we'll certainly do some sort of um loop back

40:51

around this we'll we'll capture all we're recording the the call and we'll capture all the comments and we'll we'll

40:58

sort of do a blog back out answering some of those questions um thank you

41:03

Stephen thanks again you know thanks for that brilliant um we're joined by next joined by Graeme Athetherton graeme

41:09

again you know massive advocate for lifelong learning so so many roles across the sector that I' I'd use the

41:15

next 15 minutes just giving him all his full titles but interestingly you know um with your work at Ruskin as well

41:22

another Yeah Stephen was talking about the history of of work institute WA ruskin's

41:29

part of that family and that legacy so Graeme again thanks for making the time and and obviously No problem no problem

41:35

actually older than the WA older than not to point that out and start the conversation but obviously it's difficult coming at the end i know I'll

41:42

leave now shall I i'm done make it quicker for you won't it anyway as I say um yeah I mean it's difficult coming to

41:47

the end obviously I didn't hear Sue but I know Sue very well and obviously I echo all the points made by the previous

41:53

speakers i mean I guess I am vice principal at Ruskin College now as well as um having other broader roles with

42:00

regards to advocacy for lifelong learning and uh and have done throughout my career and still do that working with colleagues in the sector as you know

42:06

Simon but from the Ruskin point of view as well it's worth pointing out that you know we're at the sharp end of some of this you know at Ruskin we both work

42:12

closely with unions and offering union education for unions employees and reps as well as also offering opportunities

42:19

to those in the most challenges and it's going to really affect this cut even though it appears to be as we say

42:24

overall small cut to those in certain those who allocate funding will really

42:29

affect our ability to deliver because at a moment as many of our colleagues on the call will know it's really difficult

42:35

to deliver provision even the present funding envelope the union point is very interesting like to to ling on that a

42:41

moment only because uh we work closer with the unions the problem at the moment is because of the lack of union

42:48

learn because of the low levels of funding even now to support the course we do with the unions we are short of

42:54

funds the unions are short of funds thus it's difficult we spend most our time working out how we're going to actually

42:59

get by rather than thinking about some of the broader strategic questions outlined earlier in the call um I think

43:05

the role of unions is crucial it's good to see some union representation I think in the call today as well i think going

43:10

forward in terms of advocacy they have to be key partners in this i'd echo some of the points that Steven made about

43:15

numbers uh if you look at uh some of the spring statement and the forecasts for employment by the OBR by 2030 how

43:23

they're going to be reached I think is a challenge certainly if we think of some of the the learner groups that we are

43:30

looking to access or the groups looking to access any way we back in to the labor market which adult learning

43:36

provides we provide at Ruskin as well as well as other colleges do um I think

43:41

also uh some of the advocacy points are interesting the the connectivity points that um that David made you know so for

43:48

instance um before being vice principy and I I was also leading a center that

43:54

looked at leveling up and implications of leveling up regional inequality and there's just been a 1.5 billion plan for

44:00

neighborhoods announced by Angela Rain about two months ago with 20 million going to 75 neighborhoods across the

44:05

country now again the connectivity between that and adult learning could be crucial uh if again they'll be that

44:13

money will be uh used and decided on the use by by those neighborhood uh boards

44:18

and areas but how does adult learning connect to that is another crucial point that connect point is there i think

44:23

David made the point very well that there are areas of work that exist in other departments that really do and

44:30

should have adult learning connected to them but that's not happening uh and therefore I think it's we do need to

44:36

work together collaboratively to make that happen we can't expect that to happen on its own the evidence shows it's not going to do so st evidence is

44:44

crucial one as well i would guess I think there's something naturally within

44:49

this area of work where we do focus on the individual learner on their journey

44:55

and the stories of those learners but the quantitative element is important as well and not just quantitative element

45:00

with regards to the economic benefit there research we can think of gathering evidence that tries to give quantitative

45:06

weight some of the other benefits adult learning provides it's conceivable to do that to provide evidence in those areas

45:11

as well as thinking also about impact of program uh We we think again often in

45:17

this space uh we're committed to working with the learners we're not all always got the space to do that evaluation part

45:24

as well but bringing that to is crucial alongside that I think we talk about evidence and having the evidence it's

45:32

often the case that the evidence is there but it's not always brought together uh if I would hypothesize if we

45:40

were able to review some of the evidence we would find a lot of strong stuff but it's not being brought together in coherent way because it goes through

45:47

different organizations or maybe it's done uh in different ways uh I think as

45:53

Stephen said I think that's an really incredially important point I finally like to finish uh on the importance of

45:59

adult learning uh and I think both for all the areas discussed today both economically socially for democracy as

46:07

well and I think finally also I guess for Labor um we thought we thought about touch points and advocacy points here

46:14

it's worth thinking about the government's position we haven't talked about Labour's coalition it's thin it's

46:21

wide but it's quite thin we know that there are certain parties that are

46:26

capturing the attention at the moment and doing well in the polls we know there are certain areas of the country

46:31

which are vulnerable uh to the government those areas are unfortunately

46:37

those with the greatest economic challenges often and where inequality is

46:43

is having its most um devastating impact uh so purely politics of this it's worth

46:49

thinking about where we position adult learning within that you know it's a political question there's political decisions that are made they are based

46:55

on evidence but are based on politics as well and if we really are going to advocate and fight for our sector we got

47:00

to think about the politics of that as well and where are the things that affect that that the government's challenge and worrying about and there

47:06

are some I mean again it is a large majority has but it's a thin majority in some respects i'll leave it at that

47:12

point no thank you Graeme i think that's a a really interesting point to finish on

47:18

and we we ran a course and it's still available on the for free on the website we ran a lecture like this and then

47:24

backed up with a short course on um media misinformation and disinformation

47:30

we had over 700 people live on the call and it's had thousands of of people

47:35

access the the material since exactly on that point that actually you would think

47:41

you know that educating an electorate being being able to you know support people with their critical thinking and

47:48

to make their own judgments and their own decisions would be a good thing to do for our democracy but it was it's the

47:54

adult skills fund that enables us to do stuff like that and and you know we'll be able to do less next year so so thank

48:02

you that's a it's a really good point to finish on um we've got 10 minutes there

48:07

is the the activity in the chat Stephen like we we can see it just popping up um

48:13

as we as we've been speaking but I' I've just looked and there is tons of it in the chat so thank you for that lots of

48:19

people asking and answering each other's questions as well so a really really sort of good discussion there um Katie

48:26

Chris is there anything we can pull out in in the 10 minutes or do you wanna do you want to point to anything in

48:32

particular or do we do we just open it up to the to the floor i know that

48:37

creates us technical problems for Mariana unmuting people anything we can anything you think I can help with or

48:45

any of the panel can help with in terms of in the chat

48:50

um there was a question earlier on from John Halford about the role of adult learning um and strengthening democracy

48:57

i think Graeme sort of touched on it but I wonder if it's worth exploring that a little bit more

49:03

yeah no absolutely and hopefully that last little bit about um misinformation and disinformation sort of plays into

49:09

that as well i don't I don't know Graeme whether you you know you raised it do you do you want to have first first go

49:16

back and John thank you again John we know John well so exactly no John makes

49:22

extremely important point uh and I think it's it is vital that we take this

49:28

messaging advocacy work forward that we focus on all the key elements that learning provides the the democratic

49:35

point is really important it goes back to some of the points about where are the threats at the moment politically both to the government to our system as

49:42

well I mean we should be looking and seeing what's happening in other countries as well in terms of some of these trends when it comes to

49:48

disinformation it comes to power being focused in certain hands um there's a deepening of democracy point as well

49:54

it's very interesting when we think about the um the devolved uh authorities and the

50:01

command authorities and where within our system there are those who are funding

50:06

adult learning now and there also points where there is some economic focus at

50:11

those stages moving forward we got to think about their acknowledgement

50:16

understanding this is key for democracy as well yeah i think that last point about

50:22

devolved authorities when we talk about democracy we tend to think about you know the the national government and you

50:28

know that but where we find ourselves in terms of devolution and I can see I can see Wayne on the call who's who's one of

50:35

our really strong local advocates and one of our local advisory panels and one of our other members Wall managed to get

50:42

a question asked at the mayor's question time in Greater Manchester so got a question raised with with Andy Bernham

50:48

about the cuts to to adult skills and actually us us understanding that we can

50:54

do that um across the country that actually it's not just about influencing

51:00

national government there's a massive role for us to be active citizens within the regions that are governing us now I

51:06

mean devolution brings many more entry points potentially for advocacy uh

51:12

especially as we see new forms of combined authorities on the government's agenda but enable to have the UA and

51:20

others and adult learning has a vital role to play in enabling people to engage in because sensibly one of the arguments of evolution is it extends

51:27

democracy people want to be more engaged in decision-m process we got to be involved in decision-m process of course

51:32

if they have the skills ability to do so which is where that learning comes in other is an empty promise agree agree KT

51:40

anywhere you want to tack us next

51:45

there is a lot of questions in the chat um and quite broad um what I might do is just outline some

51:54

actions that people can take uh in the last few moments um so just to kind of

52:00

put it in um in context who are the body um that represent adult and community

52:06

learning yesterday put out a figure that they think the 6% cut um will uh

52:13

basically leave it will remove 100,000 uh learning places uh across the sector so what that

52:21

looks like is a town the size of Eastborne or 200 jumbo jets if you're

52:26

thinking of numbers of people that will be removed from the system um so yeah like it's quite it's quite a worrying a

52:33

worrying cup for for everyone um in terms of the things that we can do now i appreciate that there's probably a lot

52:38

of fatigue to constantly responding to uh government cuts um as it's been it's

52:43

been ongoing for a number of years um and I want to kind of really stress that although we're kind of doing a lot of

52:49

campaigning work up until the spending review um is announced it really won't stop at that point that as everyone's

52:55

been talking about there's a massive role for us to um build up um a public

53:00

case I think to invest in in lifelong learning um I think one of we've talked a lot

53:07

about the need to influence policy makers but I think think at the minute we've really talked about the need to influence the wider public and that is

53:14

really key I think to us pushing adult learning up the agenda um in terms of

53:19

things that we kind of we're our asks as part of um a part of this uh campaign

53:24

and why we've got one on on the call um we've got a number of asks leading up to the spending review which are on our

53:31

adult learning page uh which I will share in a moment but there's there's a bunch of stuff we're going to ask people to do um one is that we've got a

53:38

petition out um which we will try and deliver to Rachel Reeves and her constituency um we're really wanting

53:44

people to contact their MPs we've got a template letter that people can do and to really shout about why adult

53:49

education matters and shouldn't be cut um if you're in a regional um mayor

53:55

combined authority um please do reach out to your metro mayor and find out what they're doing around the cup um and

54:02

share your story you can either submit a case study and there's been loads of amazing success stories um in the chat

54:07

that's been uh appearing but if there um if you would like to share your story

54:14

there's a link that we will share that pops up on on social media write to your local newspaper really help raise that

54:20

profile in your local area of the importance of adult education because that really um really kind of brings um

54:27

those stories to life locally and that impact um so Tim's just asked as a WA

54:33

member what else can we do aside from um emailing your MP yeah so the the kind of

54:39

different things I outlined there uh keep putting pressure on your MP as well doesn't just have to be one email if

54:45

you're a tutor or you're uh part of a learning group you can go to a constituency on a Friday um and have

54:52

those conversations get them along to a classroom keep putting pressure on MPs locally think about how you can put

54:59

pressure on them um publicly in a way that kind of Walt did um obviously with Andy Burnham which is slightly different

55:04

but there are loads of different ways here to to kind of continue to engage and make that case and we'll keep

55:10

sharing um advice and information but I will pop um a link to all our different

55:15

asks in the chat yeah no thanks Katie and um Rian when

55:21

Carol I can see that you you've had your hands up and and we are running desperately short of time i'm really

55:27

sorry but what what is triggering for me and and this is this is the moment that the team get worried now because the the

55:33

mad chief execs just about to say something that they they're not aware of is that the amount of the amount of chat

55:40

that we've had and we like I say we do sort of um copy and paste it all and and

55:45

we'll respond to it i wonder whether sometime between now and the comprehensive spending review that we

55:51

don't have another slot talking about this where actually we don't have the

55:56

amazing guest presenters that we've had but we just open it up as a conversation for um you know for anybody that's

56:03

interesting we try and do it more and we as a Q&A and maybe Stephen and Graeme and others and Gordon might might join

56:10

us but actually we've been much more questionorientated rather than present and then leave limited time for

56:16

questions so you know will you bear with us Carol and and real put it in the chat now thank you um and and and my

56:24

commitment to you is we'll come back as more of a a Q&A session we'll use one of these Thursdays at some point and just

56:30

open it up right from the beginning to the floor and um yeah and anybody that can give Stephen Evans a really tough

56:37

question and Graeme a really tough question gets bonus points as well so you know that would be that'd be

56:42

fantastic um thank you you know we we've had at its peak we had 150 people on

56:49

this call we will put the recording out there we will follow up on the chat and we'll follow up on that um that

56:56

commitment that I've just made to to try another one of these sessions thank you again to every single one of our

57:01

speakers um you know um I know Sugan particularly for you know 30 minutes

57:08

before she's going into the lords to you know um to chair a debate you know

57:13

really really pleased um that she she could join us and thanks to Steve and Graeme and and David as well um a

57:20

massive thank you to each and every one of our WA members volunteers learners

57:25

tutors that might be on this call um I saw one of the comments that says we've got to keep the you know our WA tutors

57:32

on side through all of this we've all got to keep on side through all of this this is a this is a fight that's worth

57:39

having i think it is a fight like I say I think they're coming after the adult skills fund because they think it's an

57:45

easy target that it's not going to get you know it's not going to make the 10:00 news anytime soon i think our

57:51

challenge with our online petition and with our other lobbying and advocacy work is to just make them think again

57:57

that actually this isn't the the place that they should be coming to court funds because it is so vitally important

58:03

on all the metrics that we've we've spoken about today so thank you for your

58:09

support of the WA thank you for your support of adult learning more generally and I look forward to to seeing you all

58:16

back next time for a live Q&A session we'll call it